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Discussion 1 : 19/09/2012 at 12:23 PM

Nobody suggests that AV actually ordered the killing of the taxi driver, the killing was unintended the point is could it have been avoided. Any prosecution would hinge on what orders AV did give, were they reasonable in the circumstances and did he take sufficient precautions to ensure that unintended killings like this did not happen. The buck stops at the top unless you can show that those down the chain of command disobeyed your orders and of course it applies to every PM.

Discussion 2 : 18/09/2012 at 11:55 PM

Dom - so then I'm curious about your thoughts on the legality of trying to implicate Abhisit for murder in this particular case. I doubt you will find anyone that will testify that Abhisit ordered the murder of this cab driver. But again, I'm willing to see that, and I might bet that Abhisit would too, as long as others are implicated in murders that occurred on their watch and since I believe it was you, might have been someone else, that said the buck stops at Abhisit since he was the PM, then that applies to every PM.

Discussion 3 : 18/09/2012 at 11:38 PM

brilliant D52 Human rights groups etc may have expressed outrage (and so did I in several letters published in this paper at the time) but opinion polls at the time showed local support for those actions in the range 70-85%. One of my letters led to a debate with Thai friends in Krabi (many of them university graduates) every single one supported extra judicial killing as a way of dealing with terrorists and drug dealers, my opposition was put down to the fact that as a farang I couldn't understand Thai ways.

Discussion 4 : 18/09/2012 at 11:35 PM

It’s important to remember that the protesters where, as a whole exercising their democratic right to stage a mass demonstration it was a choice they made of their own freewill nobody was ordering them to do anything. In America on August 28, 1963 there was a mass demonstration know as The March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom it was part of the civil rights movement that was taking place in America at the time. There where militant groups within the movement however on the whole the protest was as peaceful as a picnic and the US government in its infinite wisdom didn’t crackdown on the protestors, thankfully they had the good common sense not to make that mistake.

Discussion 5 : 18/09/2012 at 11:21 PM

Brilliant d54 Certainly Thaksin ordered the 'war on drugs', it's a hackneyed political campaign (like the 'war on poverty' or 'the war on illegal immigration') very often headed by a 'Drugs Czar' but you wont get a conviction based on the use of the word 'war'. To get a conviction you would have to prove that Thaksin ordered the extra judicial killing of people and if you read his speeches on the subject I don't think you'll find anything actionable. What you get if you read between the lines is open to interpretation but in legal terms it provides dodgy grounds on which to base a prosecution. The only other route is to persuade the men you mention convicted of murder and torture to implicate their superiors and follow that up the chain of command until you find someone who fingers Thaksin, until then you haven't got a legal leg to stand on.

Discussion 6 : 18/09/2012 at 09:43 PM

bkk-farang D48 No I don't think any arm twisting was involved when YS was made party leader because I don't think anyone was asked their opinion, if you join Thaksin's political party you have to abide by his decisions. But you raise an interesting point, do party members choose the best person to lead the country or do they choose the best person to get them elected. I think the latter is more likely and so I bet they are glad that TS chose her because she proved a winner on the campaign trail. Here's one for you. If PT members were given a free choice today, no arm twisting, secret ballot, do you think they would re-elect YS as party leader? I think they re-elect her in a landslide because poll after poll shows that that's what the people want.

Discussion 7 : 18/09/2012 at 09:39 PM

Disc 48 - As th number one person on the party list is always the party's PM candidate I don't think that Yingluck was a surprise to any voters when put up as the PM candidate of the PTP. On the otherhand, Abhisit's rise to that spot was not brokered not by the voters, they rejected him and his party, but by the military who appear to had appointed him in some back room deal.

Discussion 8 : 18/09/2012 at 09:29 PM

dom - "At this time the official version is that the 2000+ deaths were caused by 2000+ unknown perpetrators." Well, not quite all of them. There are a few that have been brought to justice for the murder and torture of people. It wasn't Thaksin that ordered the war on drugs? If not, can you please infform us who it was? Thanks.

Discussion 9 : 18/09/2012 at 09:26 PM

orange - "The way I understand it is that there wasn’t an armed conflict war or terrorist attack it was a mass demonstration by the people calling for the Abhisit regime to dissolve and hold fresh elections. The ill managed response was a brutal crackdown on demonstrators by government forces under the command of Abhisit and his side kick." You seem to have forgotten the small piece of information that elections were offered and accepted. Then "someone" decided it wasn't in their best interest to accept elections and ordered the increase of violence by the protesters. THAT resulted in the crackdown.

Discussion 10 : 18/09/2012 at 09:22 PM

dom - "By the way, I think that you will find the death toll at Kruen Se was 32, not 107." Oh well, that makes it alright then. I seem to recall outrage in every human rights group and the UN at all of the Thaksin "incidents".

Discussion 11 : 18/09/2012 at 09:08 PM

khunbj - "some of us believe that a country's army should never use it's weapons against it's own citizens" So you believe in the right of protesters to use weapons against their brethren Thai without responsibility or consequences? It appears so.

Discussion 12 : 18/09/2012 at 07:09 PM

@domdunn #47, you suggest some arm twisting happened before AV was elected. Maybe, I don’t know, but I know the majority of the MPs elected him. By the way, do you think there was also any arm twisting involved when Yingluck, with all her political experience, was made PM candidate and later PM? If this would have been a free election without any twisting one would think the party members would have elected someone competent, don’t you think?

Discussion 13 : 18/09/2012 at 07:04 PM

@android #48: you suggest that AV and Suthep “better get the best defence lawyers team” Why should they? I though Thai leaders are never wrong and just in case a court could find them guilty then they just leave the country and claim the prosecution was politically motivated, correct? But just in case that you insist on trials for all former MPs in Thailand then I am sure even a mediocre lawyer should be able to successfully defend AV and Suthep. After all they should be fair and leave the best lawyers for the already convicted former Thai MP. With all the cases against him he needs lots of the best lawyers money can buy.

Discussion 14 : 18/09/2012 at 06:26 PM

AV and Suthep had better get the best defence lawyers team ready for their defence in court. They will be grilled in the defendent box by the prosecutor.

Discussion 15 : 18/09/2012 at 06:11 PM

bkk-farang D 43 I think you are stretching things a bit when you say that AV was elected by the MPs in parliament "just like the PMs before and after him". AV is unique in Thai political history in that he was elected by the MPs in parliament after their leaders had visited an army camp for a bit of arm twisting.

Discussion 16 : 18/09/2012 at 06:04 PM

Democrazy D44 In your origional post (28) you wrote, quote, "KRU SE mosque incident 107 people died". NOT TRUE. In post 44 you have changed your tune and say more than 100 people were killed in a single day in Pattani, Yala and Songkhla provinces. That is TRUE, 117 in total, I believe. A BBC report from 28/4/2005, the 1st anniversary, says in paragraph 4, "In one notorious incident security forces killed 32 people holed up in Krue Se Mosque in Pattani". I rest my case. As to my original point, it was not about whether Thaksin was guilty or not, it was ridiculing your assertion that that was the reason he was overthrown, by the army of all people.

Discussion 17 : 18/09/2012 at 04:20 PM

watchdog D42 Do you have any reason for saying that or is it just a gut feeling?

Discussion 18 : 18/09/2012 at 03:57 PM

D.38 Before you accuse me of wrong numbers, you should do some Google about KruSe 2004. "But the violence on 28 April 2004 was unprecedented, with more than 100 people being killed in a single day in Yala, Pattani and Songkhla provinces." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3932323.stm But some people don't like the truth. More then a 100 in a single day. But for you and others only the 92 dead in 2010 is important. And Gen Chaiyasidh Shinawatra was the army chief. A cousin from Mr.T in Dubai How loud must the bells ring to wake you up ???

Discussion 19 : 18/09/2012 at 03:53 PM

@khun frenchy, maybe you should “clear things a bit” with your sources. Maybe your “Thai lady”, maybe from a red-village told you what happened. I suggest you can try some newspaper archives and the internet. Maybe it will help you to understand what really happened. I.e. I was here all the time in shooting distance from the “peaceful demonstration” and I had to cross their barricades more than one time. It was scary! You don’t even understand that Abhisit was elected by the MPs in parliament just like the PMs before and after him. I suggest: inform yourself and try again later – maybe in a year or two.

Discussion 20 : 18/09/2012 at 02:55 PM

khunbj raises a good point about whether and to what extent Abbhisit was involved in the suppression of the protests. Many in the expat community (and I am not purporting to speak for all) speculated that Suthep and the militairy were calling the shots and that Khun Abbhisit was, in a sense, a hostage himself to a situation he did not like and could not control.

Discussion 21 : 18/09/2012 at 02:09 PM

People say that if AV and ST can be prosecuted for the death of this man why can't Thaksin be prosecuted for the deaths in the war on drugs, the answer is that so far no connection has been proved. In the present case the court has decided that the military were responsible for the death and the chain of command leads to CRES and the PM. In the case of the drug killings it hasn't yet been established who pulled the various triggers and until that is clear you cannot say if they were acting under orders. At this time the official version is that the 2000+ deaths were caused by 2000+ unknown perpetrators.

Discussion 22 : 18/09/2012 at 02:08 PM

The way I understand it is that there wasn’t an armed conflict war or terrorist attack it was a mass demonstration by the people calling for the Abhisit regime to dissolve and hold fresh elections. The ill managed response was a brutal crackdown on demonstrators by government forces under the command of Abhisit and his side kick.

Discussion 23 : 18/09/2012 at 01:57 PM

@soi 11/14 #34: Sure, you are right about the rich Thais. But to be fair you should include Thaksin and his friends in the list of people who will “never see time in prison”. And as far as I know Abhisit and Suthep are ready for the trial. They are still in Thailand and did not flee the country…

Discussion 24 : 18/09/2012 at 01:54 PM

democrazy d28 I agree with you that Thaksin should be held accountable for either his involvement in the events you mention, or his failure to bring those involved to justice. However it is ridiculous to suggest that any of these incidents were the reason why he was removed from office by the military, Tak Bai and Krue Se were at least as much the responsibility of the army as of Thaksin. There was no public outcry over the incidents, opinion polls at the time showed overwhelming public support for the military's action at TB and KS. By the way, I think that you will find the death toll at Kruen Se was 32, not 107.

Discussion 25 : 18/09/2012 at 01:53 PM

First, I am French farang, married to a Thai lady,next let's clear things a bit. Your beloved abhisit is a british subjet, I thought dual nationality was illegal in The Land of Smile! He was a self appointed primer minister!? so much for his democratic "Logo" then he orders the murdering of dissatisfied Thai citizens,(not drug dealers) simply because they were dreaming of a true democratic sociaty in Thailand. What's wrong with that? Was that a good enough reason for killing his own peolpe?! Abhist, I want to make you an offer; I would like you to have a holiday...I will pay fist class, all expenses,to Cambodia, one way..of course.

Discussion 26 : 18/09/2012 at 01:46 PM

This is just a disgrace. The terrorists are lucky that more were not killed like they would have been in any developed Western society. The crack-down would have been very swift in those countries. I wonder if the DSI will chase the money which paid for it all. Of course not : they seem determined to avoid any investigation which might place blame on Thaksin and his chronies. What an embarassing sham this all is for Thailand. The DSI should be ashamed for what they are doing.

Discussion 27 : 18/09/2012 at 01:34 PM

khunjb D25 I pretty much agree with you, the problem for AV is that he was PM and the buck stops at the top.

Discussion 28 : 18/09/2012 at 01:21 PM

Don't worry Suthep or Abisit, you're rich Thai's. Even if it did go to court and you did get found guilty, you'll never see time in prison. I believe it is the law in Thailand that only poor people go to Jail!

Discussion 29 : 18/09/2012 at 12:48 PM

And what about a certain Mr. T. who condoned the murder of more than 2,000 people in the name of the "War on Drugs"?

Discussion 30 : 18/09/2012 at 12:22 PM

bkposter Dis#19 ,"They realize that reconciliation does not really favor them as they do not have the political strength to get power any other way only to tear down the other side". To tear down or burn down , the difference being ?

Discussion 31 : 18/09/2012 at 12:18 PM

They want to charge Abhisit for an "accident", taxi driver was not shot intentionally. BUT shouldn't Thaksin be charged first for his "War on Drugs" with more than 2500 lives lost and his shoot on sight policy? Red leaders charged for telling red shirts to burn down the city? The following two figures meant what they said and caused more deaths as the result of their order.

Discussion 32 : 18/09/2012 at 12:15 PM

@Disc 11 - Khunbj, do you honestly still believe the red protest were about peoples rights and voices? If it weren't for the red shirts on the streets, there would have not been any lives lost. Taking a hostage for 2-3 month is serious enough and the military has been more than patient not to mention the useless police. Try camping out in the heart of any first world city for 2-3 month, lets see how they deal with them.

Discussion 33 : 18/09/2012 at 11:04 AM

"The officials who are accused of shooting Phan will be classified as witnesses, as they were acting under instructions. Mr Tarit said it was possible Mr Abhisit and Mr Suthep could be charged with premeditated murder under Sections 288 and 289 of the Criminal Code because they ordered the military to quell the riots." So, this means that Thaksin and various officials during his administration "could be charged with premeditated murder under Sections 288 and 289 of the Criminal Code" for the anti-drug war and various lethal events, like Tak Bai, in the South during his administration, right?

Discussion 34 : 18/09/2012 at 11:00 AM

D.11 "Some of us believe that a country's army should never use it's weapons against it's own citizens.." Then you will surely agree with me that on April 2004 KRU.SE mosque incident 107 people died, Oct.2004 Tak Bai, 84 people died and on the "war on drugs" 2500 died when ThaksinS. was the PM and for this events and many others it was necessary to remove him from office 6 years ago. Bec. he was never held accountable for his political oversight of these horrible events.

Discussion 35 : 18/09/2012 at 10:37 AM

Dis 11 Yes I,m sure the brainwashed protestors were much better educated .Thats why they ignored instructions to clear the area for a week and turned down an early election which is what they said they wanted .Thats why their UDD leaders cheered them to die for Thaksin and then gave up when the military arrived to disperse the crowd .Yes educated indeed .

Discussion 36 : 18/09/2012 at 10:15 AM

@bkposter #19, you write about the DEMs: “What other point do they have to rally behind? Nothing […]” As we all know the DEMs are in the opposition in the moment and the job of the opposition is to monitor the ruling party and the coalition. The DEMs have plenty of work and they actually do their work. Just to name a few points: Flood prevention planning, investment and failure; corruption and the way PT handles it (remove the guy who started to expose it); inactive PM who does not lead the government; complete failure to control and discipline police; the list goes on and on.

Discussion 37 : 18/09/2012 at 09:28 AM

If and when there will be any murder charges thrown against somebody for ordering specific murders of civilians, then it will have to be proven that is the case, and it is far too early to discuss this matter now. The court decision was sought to see whether or not soldiers killed in this case, and the Court said yes, the army killed, but by who and why, that was not discussed. However I believe if there will be charges laid then it is more likely to be in cases involving people killed by snipers, as these cannot get away with "oh that was an accident, I did not mean to hit him" a sniper picks a victim either by his own choice or by following an order, and then kills him with a head shot, so here there is definitely cases for premeditated murder of the worst kind. Quite honestly then I don't think that Abhisit had a clue what was going on or why, the show was run by Sutthep and other people from the establishment and Army brass, AV is only the face of the DEMs, nothing more than that.

Discussion 38 : 18/09/2012 at 09:24 AM

What was taxi driver doing at this time inside a dangerous zone ?????

Discussion 39 : 18/09/2012 at 09:19 AM

If Abhissit and Suthep are persecuted for " murder"... what offenses should the great fugitive be persecuted for??? Probably more than this comment can contain but certainly something like " Conspirator and financing of a terrorist, violent occupation of the capital with 36 arsons as finale"

Discussion 40 : 18/09/2012 at 09:18 AM

I do have some sympathy for Ahbisit if ever he's convicted. A man of his background and demeanor is no murderer. His weakness is that he was not strong enough as a leader to challenge the hawks in his party and military. I am not surprised that Suterp was the de-facto PM and made most of the decisions leading to the violent consequences. Ahbisit problem is his pride to seek Chuan's and others party incumbents advises.

Discussion 41 : 18/09/2012 at 08:59 AM

mister disc 8, "Reds like to spread lots of wrong informations" would you say that the army marksmen who testified 2 weeks ago are "Red"? About your "every leader in the world would be in jail", they are already a lot, read the news or ask to Mubarak.

Discussion 42 : 18/09/2012 at 08:55 AM

No honest judge would pass a "pre-meditated" murder charge in such a case, as that would imply the AV & Suthep planned to specifically murder Khun Phan in advance. At the most, perhaps, they could be charged with accessory to manslaughter. But any decent lawyer will get the case tossed out, as the head of the DSI investigations was also a member of CRES, hence a major conflict of interest. And likewise a good lawyer could turn the tables on the PTP/UDD by pulling in the findings of the TRC placing a share of blame on Thaksin and the UDD. Hence the UDD leadership could face a similar charge.

Discussion 43 : 18/09/2012 at 08:50 AM

RE: D15, I do believe you are correct, and I also believe that the military itself wants amnesty for all including TS, as they now realize how culpable they really are so they have allowed this to be released to achieve that end. The DP, for political reasons are not in favor. What other point do they have to rally behind? Nothing, and they are well aware of it.....so they would like to keep the issue open as long as possible. They realize that reconciliation does not really favor them as they do not have the political strength to get power any other way only to tear down the other side. Sad but true. Looks just like politics in the west, does it not?

Discussion 44 : 18/09/2012 at 08:40 AM

RE: D8 I read that statement right here in the Bangkok Post. I also read in another newspaper, that after that statement was made, it was revealed that the army has never had any rubber bullets.

Discussion 45 : 18/09/2012 at 08:29 AM

Good people of Thailand , don`t fall for this obvious TS BS selfserving agenda for Amnesty !

Discussion 46 : 18/09/2012 at 08:29 AM

I hope Abhisit and Suthep will be charged and I hope this will be done ASAP. Why? Because there is no way an unbiased court will prove that they are guilty. Get it over with so that no red-shirt can accuse them anymore after the court confirms that they are not guilty. Bring it on! P.S.: There are also a couple of other court cases which should be fast-tracked…

Discussion 47 : 18/09/2012 at 08:04 AM

One of the major pieces of the 'blanket amnesty' jigsaw falling into place.

Discussion 48 : 18/09/2012 at 07:59 AM

Where would we be now if the military had not stood up to this tyranny and defend the Thai people. Well done military Take a bow for defending humanity and peoples basic rights.

Discussion 49 : 18/09/2012 at 07:56 AM

Khunbj: true that the army should not have been required for this issue but since the police force were powerless in their efforts to dispell the mobs (or preferred not to) then the army is the last post in defense.

Discussion 50 : 18/09/2012 at 07:36 AM

This Tarit fellow, who bizarrely enough was a member of this very CRES he is keenly implicating, increasingly runs the risk here of sounding implausible to the point that no one will take the DSI findings seriously. What an incredible about face, one can only wonder what 'persuasion' went on behind the scenes. Oh the great charade!

Discussion 51 : 18/09/2012 at 07:35 AM

Not surprised to see many posters defend a military's right to kill civilians...they are probably also defenders of Assad, Ghadaffi and his likes. Well some of us believe that a country's army should never use it's weapons against it's own citizens, that is not what the army is meant to be doing, but if the army is not there to defend the country and it's citizens but only there to defend the influential people , the rich families etc and it's own position in society , well then I understand it much better...and that is probably the case here....and to see people defend this is just showing how poorly educated they are.

Discussion 52 : 18/09/2012 at 07:22 AM

Ho no please keep them, those 2 are so unpopular that with them we are sure to not see the Dems win any elections for more 20 years.

Discussion 53 : 18/09/2012 at 07:22 AM

"I am convinced there was no exchange of fire between the offender and the military, or any attack on military checkpoints, as Mr Suthep reported...the judge said." Suthep made a falsified investigation report on this taxi driver's death incident.

Discussion 54 : 18/09/2012 at 07:06 AM

ringmaster - "I thought the army said that all they used were rubber bullets?" Do you have a source for that quote? Reds like to spread lots of wrong information.

Discussion 55 : 18/09/2012 at 06:17 AM

AV & ST had the authority to safe quard the country from mob it was unfortunate that a taxi driver was killed under rules of engagement. Shouldn't Obama be charge with murder for Osama in Pakistan.

Discussion 56 : 18/09/2012 at 06:10 AM

"Although there was no empirical witness testimony that could say whose bullet killed Phan, all the circumstances lead to the conclusion that the volley of gunfire with war weapons came from the military authorities who were on duty that night." What a load of TS BS , chocolate anyone ?

Discussion 57 : 18/09/2012 at 05:07 AM

I thought the army said that all they used were rubber bullets?

Discussion 58 : 18/09/2012 at 05:06 AM

I wonder what they will do with thaksins " War on drugs " where the police under his orders killed more than 2000 people ? Will they add 2000 pluss charges of murder against thaksin ? I somehow doubdt it . . . . . Now who thinks this latest stunt is politicaly motivated ?

Discussion 59 : 18/09/2012 at 04:56 AM

If every leader in every country in the world was charged with murder for civilian causalities during a conflict, then just about every leader in the world would be in jail. The you could charge the mayor of every city for murder when a civilian is killed in a police pursuit. And Yingluck could be charged with murder for dereliction of duty in the South. But, you know what, if Thaksin will come back and face approximately 3,000 counts of murder, then I'm all for it.

Discussion 60 : 18/09/2012 at 04:36 AM

A van driver violates a direct military order not to drive the van towards a military unit, during a tense period of armed conflict? ...and the military unit was not supposed to brandish actual weapons as the unknown van continued to approach against orders? And the former PM may be liable? Is this really as crazy as it sounds? This was undoubtedly a tragic event. But this ruling smells of 100% politics. So much for the party of "reconciliation".

Discussion 61 : 18/09/2012 at 04:32 AM

I think the murder charge statement is a bit extreme considering AV and Suthep were not even near the scene of the crime. Poor cabbie someone forgot to tell him there was a war happening and he has drifted off course into a danger zone. When will the cabbies family be receiving their 7.5m baht compensation or was he not a registered red shirt member?