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Discussion 1 : 23/09/2012 at 12:14 AM

There seems to be some confusion about the 'election offer'. The red side was demanding elections daily, as 'yup suppaa' was their primary slogan. After intense compromise on both sides, the reds agreed to disperse *asap* if elections were called within 3 months. AV insisted the reds disperse *asap* if he was given 6 months for elections. The reds determined this to be an insincere delaying tactic with no intent to actually hold elections, and hence refused to disperse. AV was convinced he could never win an early election - so both sides left negotiations. AV opted instead to use armed soldiers to disperse the protesters, wait over a year for elections, modify the organic election laws in his favor, create the 77th province to gerrymander, and visually distort the election ballots to disfavor PTP.

Discussion 2 : 22/09/2012 at 03:52 AM

I've gotten so tired of reds defending their stance of the 2010 looting, burning and violence in Bangkok, yet they could care less about the South. I don't see one of them commenting on the South stories because the South doesn't matter to reds and PTP. FLAT OUT hypocrites. Someday...karma; what goes around, comes around...doesn't matter how you say it, reds, TRT and PTP will pay for their total disregard for human life in Bangkok, in the South, during the war on drugs, at Tak Bai, at Kru Se, the attorney Somchai. Reds just flat don't care as long as they get their pockets full by corruption or through the master in the desert. The only reason they care about anybody dying in Bangkok is because they use it in an attempt to forward their political agenda.

Discussion 3 : 21/09/2012 at 09:48 PM

abbub and android - so agreeing to elections, but asking the red leaders to accept responsibility for their actions is wrong? All negotiations are THAT - negotiations. Give and take, compromise. The fact is reds will never take responsibility for their actions and that's why elections were turned down. Just another example of reds having to win at everything, no compromise, no reconciliation, just win at all costs.

Discussion 4 : 21/09/2012 at 09:14 AM

BRILLIANT & OLD and a couple of others simply ignore the truth of what I stated here, because addressing that fact means they have to reassess their position. In the final days before the "negotiations" fell apart, the democrats made added something that caused the delat they needed at a moment it appeared the UDD just might accept the offer which, in fact they never wanted accepted. Phony fake peace offers are a part of the text book of creating an enemy that is evil and with whom it is impossible to reason. It is a typical strategic ploy! They added details were : - The people could go home without consequences but leaders could be arrested, charged for treason and/or terrorism and risked the death penalty. Who would still now suggest the offer was genuine and intended to pave the way for early elections?

Discussion 5 : 21/09/2012 at 09:03 AM

HOWELL D48 tries, as they often do to refer to twisted logic in numbers to suggest the Pheu Thai voters are really just a minority. Thailand has system (kind of) representative (kind of) democracy (kind of) The election results showed almost double the number of votes for the Pheu Thai than for the democrats. Twisting these commenters against them, or rather straightening their intentional bending of math, we could say the democrats received only half as many votes as the Pheu Thai. PS I no longer support the PT as before. But that does nor mean I now believe, nor support the democrats.

Discussion 6 : 21/09/2012 at 08:58 AM

Discussion 60 brilliant : the answer is as said in discussion 59 domdunnn. Learn thai language well and figure it out in your video record tape on the meeting, if any.

Discussion 7 : 21/09/2012 at 06:54 AM

android - "It is absurb to say that PT didn't want an early election." They were offered and declined. So you figure out why.

Discussion 8 : 21/09/2012 at 06:44 AM

brilliant D55 The dispute wasn't over the election date it was over AVs refusal to say on what date he would dissolve the parliament.

Discussion 9 : 21/09/2012 at 06:36 AM

D57@android Quote Thaksin knew well that PT party would surely win in the general election beforehand. And the 2011 election result did tell the truth. It is absurb to say that PT didn't want an early election. So just why didn't they accept the offer on the table and call Abhisit's bluff if indeed it was a bluff. They actually did accept the offer but it seems a single phone call from some person changed their minds. I wonder who that could ahve been?

Discussion 10 : 21/09/2012 at 04:49 AM

Discussion 55 brilliant : "The truth is the "guy in Dubai" didn't want early elections" Thaksin knew well that PT party would surely win in the general election beforehand. And the 2011 election result did tell the truth. It is absurb to say that PT didn't want an early election.

Discussion 11 : 21/09/2012 at 04:01 AM

brilliant 4 - "I guess john would have the army fight back against grenades and assault rifles with pea shooters." The soldiers were there and fully armed with live ammunition and armored assault vehicles, dispersing protesters, before the 'men in black' even existed. So why was the army there at all?

Discussion 12 : 21/09/2012 at 02:09 AM

abbub - "AV made a fake offer he knew would be difficult to accept." Really? A fake offer? So he made an offer, but it wasn't real? It was imaginary? Didn't he also offer to meet with red shirt leaders multiple times. The truth is the "guy in Dubai" didn't want early elections, he didn't want reconciliation meetings, he wanted war and he got it. He thinks he's a martyr, but martyrs make their own sacrifices, they don't use others to sacrifice for them.

Discussion 13 : 20/09/2012 at 11:20 PM

DEM D43: That is not true what you say. AV never "promised" early elections as you put it. AV made a fake offer he knew would be difficult to accept. When it looked like the UDD just might accept the offer...AV threw in a caveat: The people could go home without consequences but leaders could be arrested, be charged for treason and terrorism and risked the death penalty. AV knew very well this would mean the offer was not longer acceptable at all. The hesitation on the part of the UDD now gave the AV government just a bit more time to prepare their onslaught. Your "facts" are misleading, either intentionally or you are badly informed.

Discussion 14 : 20/09/2012 at 10:41 PM

@domdunnn. Thanks for confirming that Thaksin was calling the shots. Seems many people do not realize this. They think it was a spontaneous demonstration, rather like the Arab spring. Err no. Thaksin whipped up them via vid broadcasts and paid for them to go to BKK. 500 baht a day; that's better than the 300 some, only some, some get now.

Discussion 15 : 20/09/2012 at 09:39 PM

howell D48 And an even larger number didn't vote for Abhisit/Suthep/The army. Of those who were entitled to vote and could be bothered to do so, more voted for PT than for the Dems. Hope that clears up you confusion.

Discussion 16 : 20/09/2012 at 09:32 PM

android - and where were you? In Bangladesh? Must be a good view from there to Bangkok to know what was going on.

Discussion 17 : 20/09/2012 at 09:31 PM

howell D48 I doubt that there is a single person who doesn't already know that TS was running things on the opposition side, the only revelation of any novelty would be a revelation of who was running things on the government side. Get real.

Discussion 18 : 20/09/2012 at 08:06 PM

Discussion 41 englishbob : so you could ride in your motorbike freely in the live bullet war zone streets without being shot by the armed red shirts and soldiers. The army must have given you the privilege to move around freely in the closed dangerous areas after satisfying with your explanation "my staff were trapped". Carry on bob.

Discussion 19 : 20/09/2012 at 08:02 PM

@domdunnn. '....but judging by the election results the majority blame the AV government'. What majority ? 60 % did NOT vote for Thaksin/PTP.

Discussion 20 : 20/09/2012 at 07:55 PM

@domunnn. 'But the government has things to gain from a high profile trial where the secrets of who was really calling the shots.' Almost right. The country has everything to gain when Thaksin is revealed as the person really calling the shots.

Discussion 21 : 20/09/2012 at 07:33 PM

democrazy D43 Did AV actually agree to set a firm date for these promised elections?

Discussion 22 : 20/09/2012 at 07:33 PM

Discussion 43. Because it is a red shirt trait. Lie lie and then lie some more.

Discussion 23 : 20/09/2012 at 07:32 PM

Discussion 41. Dom Dunn is simply ignorant as shown by his posts on here and his countless letters to postbag.

Discussion 24 : 20/09/2012 at 05:49 PM

D.39 Why are you hiding the FACTS. Abhisit promised early elections, but the red-leaders did not take his offer. This is a FACT.

Discussion 25 : 20/09/2012 at 05:42 PM

Disc#36: Fortunately for YOU they were on the winning side. However it is a good point you make, comparing allied commander with German commanders - who practised wholesale butchery against those who opposed them (just obeying orders of course - same as the red-shirts). I have spoken to many people about what happened - I have even seen the .50 cal hole in the Dusit Thai ceiling on the top floor. Nobody comes out of situations like this smelling of roses. It takes a certain kind of person to make the tough decisions. However I believe the real evil which was the root cause of all of this is sipping champagne in Dubai when he should be slammed in a jail cell. Fortunately for Thailand their are still people with the integrity to fight against people like him.

Discussion 26 : 20/09/2012 at 05:29 PM

Disc36 DomDunn - Once again, you show your complete ignorance of the REAL situation. I travelled up Sukhumvit Road on 19th May. I kicked over a burning barricade at Asoke and rode my motorbike through a posse of armed thugs setting fire to tyres. I saw a high level UDD leader escape in a white SUV with an entourage of 50+ motorcycle taxi riders. A grenade exploded under Asoke BTS station. At Suk 11 there was a line of soldiers blocking traffic going further towards the violence. At Suk 4, I met an army officer who prevented me from progressing. I explained my staff were trapped. Before allowing me to cross the junction, he scanned all the tall buildings with binoculars (not looking for his OWN snipers, I can guarantee). Later I rode past SET which was being put to flames and down onto Rama IV where a large group of red shirts were firing guns over a barricade towards the army (the same barricade where they held up the baby in the famous picture). None of you red shirt fans can ever tell me I didn't see all those things and that the army wasn't necessary. I'll never forget looking back at the city and seeing the smoke rising from the dozens of buildings your peaceful protesters burnt.

Discussion 27 : 20/09/2012 at 05:13 PM

Abhisit and Suthep don't worry you are innocent. But the fugitives hands in Dubai are so dirty, he will never be able in his remaining life to clean his hands from all the corruption and horrible events when he was the PM.

Discussion 28 : 20/09/2012 at 04:56 PM

Did anyone think they would simply send in the military and force out some 30, 40, 50 thousand protestors without casulties. The decision was made to force out the protestors, end the demonstration and accept the fact that there could and would be casulties. Everyone watching TV knew this was going to happen. If they had just held elections this would not have happened.

Discussion 29 : 20/09/2012 at 04:12 PM

Discussion 33. The Human rights watch also blames the reds for the violence. I have yet to see a single red on here accept their part of the blame for the deaths. Will you do that now.... Of course not. According to you the reds were all holding hands singing peace songs and giving the soldiers flowers.

Discussion 30 : 20/09/2012 at 04:05 PM

Discussion 35. The last people in the world who wants this to go to court is Thaksin and the UDD leaders. They may shout for justice but they know full well that in court their true roles in the protests and the deaths will come out. That is the last thing they want.

Discussion 31 : 20/09/2012 at 03:07 PM

englishjohn D15 There is a world of difference between a war between armies and putting down a localised civil insurrection. And it was localised, during that period I was living a few kilometres away on Sukhamvit 11 and there you wouldn't have known anything untoward was happening. And in my opinion there are a number of Allied WW2 commanders who did have blood on their hands, particularly those who ordered the bombing of cities, fortunately for them they were on the winning side and got to write the official history.

Discussion 32 : 20/09/2012 at 02:57 PM

bluebkk D27 You are right, everyone including the government knows that the court will never convict AV and ST. But the government has things to gain from a high profile trial where the secrets of who was really calling the shots on the government side are revealed, along with orders detailing, foer example, under what circumstances the army could kill people. And all this ending in a 'not guilty' verdict that would be greeted by UDD leaders as just another example of double standards. Doesn't sound like an election winning scenario for the Democrats.

Discussion 33 : 20/09/2012 at 02:46 PM

pjt D19 I agree with you about the arm twisting but I'm surprised that you think the PT government would not want a trial that would keep the issue in the public mind, I think they'd love it. The public are split about who bears the blame for these deaths and injuries but judging by the election results the majority blame the AV government. A trial would be a daily reminder to their supporters that AV and TS were the ones associated with the deaths and injuries to their colleagues, what better way to keep the faithful on your side. Plus, in mounting their defence AV and ST would be forced to reveal exactly what they ordered the army to do and these things always look worse in cold print once the crisis has passed.

Discussion 34 : 20/09/2012 at 02:46 PM

Discussion 6 and 15 : so if you have read the reports of Human Right Watch you didn't miss this statement :“Despite well-documented atrocities that took place in the full view of cameras and witnesses, no Thai soldier or official has been held accountable. The military should not be above the law. The government needs to prosecute all those responsible for crimes, whatever their political affiliation or official position, to provide justice for the victims and end the cycle of violence and impunity.” May 15 2012. Shooting at unarmed protestors is a serious crime both by Thai and International Laws. Some Red Shirts are in jail for 20 years for violence and obviously the impunity is not on the side that some want us to believe...

Discussion 35 : 20/09/2012 at 02:26 PM

Does the government need democrat party support to pass an amnesty bill for reconciliation surely it’s public support the people the government represents that counts and I would imagine whiteashing crines of premeditated murderer wouldn't gain public support. Also I seem to recall the reds being firm in their stance concerning holding those responsible for the brutal crackdown to account.

Discussion 36 : 20/09/2012 at 01:51 PM

Chalerm said Tarit was not responsible as he had only been involved at an operational level. Ah , the old " I was only following orders " excuse reappears. One day, maybe during the next Gov's term Jatuporn and Nattawut will be put on the stand for their part. They will inevitably trot out the " I was following orders" excuse. That will be the day when the truth about the whole dirty plot might be revealed.

Discussion 37 : 20/09/2012 at 01:32 PM

The only blood Abhisit has on his hands is from wiping it off the wall of his home, which was gratefully donated by the UDD buffalo.

Discussion 38 : 20/09/2012 at 01:27 PM

Sutthep is of course crowing now because the establishment and friends let him of the hook in Senate, no surprise there , there is also no surprise in all the support he receives from the usual fans here, to me he was always a highly unsympathetic personality and would do the DEMs a favor by disappearing from the scene, but I can see here that many posters seem to love the guy, wonder why, The whole discussion whether Sutthep should be charged or not will be in the hand of the State prosecutor, so what we have here is a discussion between Tarit and Sutthep and the best they could do would be to be quiet and await the prosecutors decision if and when a such will ever come. And who says that Tarit will not be charged as well, after all he was at the CRES with Sutthep as well, let's see shall we.

Discussion 39 : 20/09/2012 at 01:19 PM

siamitude D13+D26: Abhisit also had blood in front of his house and on his gate, remember where that came from? The reds did whatever it takes to get blood on his hands - that was the target since the start.

Discussion 40 : 20/09/2012 at 01:07 PM

Gentlemen Suthep and Abhissit don't worry; every decent, educated and law abiding citizen can see through this PT/UDD orchestrated scam. What they don' t or cannot control however are the courts and the courts-until further notice- do not give in the the machinations of the great fugitive!!!

Discussion 41 : 20/09/2012 at 12:52 PM

Face it. Suthep, Abhisit and Prayuth have blood on their hand. Just like Thaksin and his war against drugs. If you think that one side is better than the other you must be naive, because at he end, Thai people always loose.

Discussion 42 : 20/09/2012 at 12:13 PM

Lets do the unthinkable; redo the whole scene all over again to verify certain facts; only this time let the other color shirt people (Blue, Green and Rainbow) occupy the same areas, as the Red, for an indefinite period of time. Demand that the RED & Yellow people stop all these nonsense and make peace with each other (an impossible task). Also throw in the “Man in White” ninjas, for special effect, to do the security. Will history repeat itself?; you guess is as good as mine.

Discussion 43 : 20/09/2012 at 11:30 AM

Abbub d20: when you leave the woods you'll have a good view of the trees ...

Discussion 44 : 20/09/2012 at 11:12 AM

Ok so now that this has been exposed as another taxsin sponsored rous to selfservingly obtain Amnesty , who will or is going to investigate this counter claim , chalerm and priewpan ? Three cheers for AV , Suthep and the Dems for having the backbone to stand up against the disgustingly low Dubai desert serpent and his corrupt cronies and mobs , both red and brown ! Seems corrupt to the core if the clones Bro`master isn`t exposed and held to account for his leading role in "his" peoples war and "his vision" of a Bangkok in Flames ?

Discussion 45 : 20/09/2012 at 10:55 AM

let's be honest. It will take generation and hope if ever to have a real reconciliation. TRC or anyone cannot act as a savior. The hope of TRC closing some chapter with proof beyond doubt is the only best chance. The media lack of energy to highlight the detail finding report that could share to the general public is also unhelpful.

Discussion 46 : 20/09/2012 at 10:11 AM

D18 I respectfully ask you....Do you think the persecution of one man was worth all the grief the military and then the DP has put the nation through since 06? We hear over and over about how terrible he was, but then after all the time in power where they controlled absolutely everything the best they came up with is that TS abused his power because his wife bid on a piece of property in a total transparent public auction? If even 10% of the stuff they claim is true, then why is that all they got? If he was actually so guilty and so corrupt, then why is this all they could come up with? Am I missing something? or are you not seeing something? or is there a lot that none of us is allowed to see?

Discussion 47 : 20/09/2012 at 09:55 AM

ROBINS D18: "the damage they did to their Country solely for the benefit of 1 clearly psychopathic man." Yes you are right, Suthep does seem like a psychopathic liar. But it was not just for his sake but a few others also, mostly his cohorts and other other like-minded individuals who sneer at "the people".

Discussion 48 : 20/09/2012 at 09:42 AM

This is just part of the arm twisting chess game. The last thing PT government want is for Khun Abhisit and Khun Suthep to be appearing day after day in a trial (which no doubt will be appealed all the way to the Supreme court) and this issue being kept in the public mind. Still less will they want a guilty verdict because of the precedent it would set - every time there is an accidental death in a police operation or in (say) the south the call will go up for the PM and ministers to be taken to court

Discussion 49 : 20/09/2012 at 09:19 AM

There could be nothing worse for Thailand at this time than dwelling on the Bangkok riots with a drawn out politically motivated show trial. Some day in the future, Thais will look back with sadness at the damage they did to their Country solely for the benefit of 1 clearly psychopathic man.

Discussion 50 : 20/09/2012 at 09:00 AM

"Department of Special Investigation (DSI) chief Tarit Pengdith earlier said Mr Suthep and Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva could face premeditated murder charges" Does Tarit have any idea of what constitutes a 'premeditated murder'? I think not, which would seem to make him unqualified for his job. "But Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung said yesterday that Mr Tarit was not responsible for the deaths during the 2010 crackdowns as he had only been involved at an operational level." For once Chalerm is right, but that also applies to Abhisit and Suthep. Can't have it both ways. Why is it that Thai officials seem to have such problems with logical thinking?

Discussion 51 : 20/09/2012 at 08:54 AM

when is the fugitive going to be charged for murder,instigating the violent rally and inciting unrest ?

Discussion 52 : 20/09/2012 at 08:28 AM

The red shirt supporters on here have a real problem with their moral compass. If Abhisit and Suthep have blood on their hands, it is in the same way as commanders of allied soldiers in world-war 2 : a consequence of the battle to stop evil and corrupt men from getting power to abuse. Some people here should think about Thailands future, not their own.

Discussion 53 : 20/09/2012 at 08:02 AM

subconman - funny, I just read a report yesterday by the UN human watch group and the conclusions were very similar to TRC.

Discussion 54 : 20/09/2012 at 07:54 AM

Suthep and the military have blood on their hand. We all know this.

Discussion 55 : 20/09/2012 at 07:47 AM

Thaksin fans are always eager to point out that the prosecution against their hero was politically motivated. Let’s look at the current case: 1. Would it be politically motivated to charge AV and Suthep with murder? Yes 2. Should they be prosecuted if there is evidence against them? Yes 3. Should they go to jail if the court finds them guilty of murder? Yes 4. Should the DEM supporters after a verdict be able to say: No, it was politically motivated so AV and Suthep should not go to jail? I don’t think so; if the evidence is there and they are guilty they should do the time. But obviously if there is no evidence to proof they are murderers then they should be declared innocent in this case. Now let’s go back to Thaksin: 1. Was his prosecution politically motivated? Yes 2. Was there a lot of evidence against him? Yes 3. Was he rightfully sentenced to jail because of all that evidence? Yes 4. Should he be free because all this was politically motivated? No! qed

Discussion 56 : 20/09/2012 at 07:16 AM

Subcoman D6: Amnesty international and the like are organizations who usually sit far away from the scene and simply defend and protect anything that has two legs and can somehow speak. The red riots were and are well documented by the media, that's the advantage of today's technology. We don't need Amnesty International in New York to tell us what happened and who did wrong.

Discussion 57 : 20/09/2012 at 07:14 AM

I humbly appeal to the moderators at BP to allow this comment. For those that would stack the for/against voting on this forum please note: It is obvious and quite disengenuous.

Discussion 58 : 20/09/2012 at 06:58 AM

'Political observers say the government is using the threat of criminal charges against Democrat Party key figures as leverage to obtain a pardon for Thaksin.' This is right on the mark. D1, 5 and 6: Abhisit/Suthep are standing by their word and ready to face charges since they are confident the charges of 'murder' are tenuous. What they are saying is that by implicating responsibility all the way to the top, all those along the way (ie CRES and that includes Tharit) would be culpable too. Amnesty International et al, did NOT describe this as government murdering a bunch of unarmed protestors, it's a bit more complicated than that, and they would have made a fool of themselves doing so, re read the report. As the TRCT report explains, there were alot of suspicious or culpable parties and extenuating circumstances complicating this and much that you try and rubbish it because it was 'set up by the Anti-Thaksin crowd', it does not explain away various issues such as 'men in black', dead soldiers, about face from the UDD negotiators, abuse of protest rights and so on.

Discussion 59 : 20/09/2012 at 06:16 AM

Thaksin must be getting desperate, if he has to choose such a weak case to try to get Democrat support for a personal whitewash. I would say that he is willing to sacrifice Tarit to get what he wants; a characteristic of his, which we have seen before. Every time Thaksin tries a new strategy, he seems to fail. The government seems to be spending all its time to support the Thaksin and Red Shirt case. I suppose it is too much to ask them to work on the country's more pressing problems too.

Discussion 60 : 20/09/2012 at 06:02 AM

Does this now mean that Thaksin will be neld responsible along with ALL the Police commanders for all the deaths of some 2,500 in the dirty drugs war as he was the PM at the time? Or is that down to double standards and Thaksin can do no wrong?

Discussion 61 : 20/09/2012 at 05:50 AM

Of course it is now supposed to be all plots and set up because "they" are dissatisfied whenever some people tell the "truth". The things is that main International Human Rights organizations (example Amnesty International , Human Right Watch and so on) or International medias (CNN etc..) gave and still gives exactly opposite reports than your "truth". Feel free to check by yourself of course. And you want us to believe that all of them are part of the "set up" and "plot" to bring back Thaksin ? Well, just keep this one for the people who are ready to listen such non sense....

Discussion 62 : 20/09/2012 at 05:25 AM

"Mr Abhisit said yesterday that if the charges are pressed, Mr Tarit could not deny responsibility for the case because Mr Tarit had been a member of CRES." After a long time,I do agree with AV when he says that CRES members cannot avoid responsibilities for the killings. Since Suthep was the Director of CRES during those days, he must take responsibilities along with Tarit.

Discussion 63 : 20/09/2012 at 05:21 AM

johninbkk - twisting words and being disingenuous as usual. Most logical, intelligent people understand that "ordering the use of arms" is not the same as "ordering soldiers to be there with weapons" I guess john would have the army fight back against grenades and assault rifles with pea shooters. Most armies do carry weapons, john. Still denying that protesters had weapons. Why was a huge cache of weapons found at the red shirt camps?

Discussion 64 : 20/09/2012 at 05:10 AM

Corruption and dirty politics. Business as usual in Thailand.

Discussion 65 : 20/09/2012 at 04:44 AM

Both parties have blood on their hands...throughout Thai history government officials wether military or otherwise have killed its citizens, so as to project their power and control...its what has kept the nation subservient to the small percentage that rule it economically...its a feudal democracy thats not willinging to reform purely out of selfishness and greed.

Discussion 66 : 20/09/2012 at 03:39 AM

"We never ordered the use of arms to deal with protesters but when armed 'men in black' appeared on April 10, 2010, and killed soldiers" If he never ordered soldiers to be there with assault weapons and live ammunition, then how did they get killed and shoot back if they were never there? "Mr Abhisit said yesterday that if the charges are pressed, Mr Tarit could not deny responsibility for the case because Mr Tarit had been a member of CRES." Mr AV is implying that CRES did something immoral/illegal, and as such Mr Tarit should be concerned.