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Discussion 1 : 03/11/2012 at 10:28 PM

Some of you guys are funny the way you spin stuff to try and get your argument across. Did any of you ever think that only the single case has been forwarded by the UDD to the ICC. The Democrats or others could have forwarded all the cases, like the WOD and Takbai, to the ICC but they didn't bother. Why not? Who knows? The ICC only investigates cases that are brought before it, sorry guys.

Discussion 2 : 03/11/2012 at 10:28 PM

If,in the unlikely event,the ICC is lured into this mess called politics in Thailand,it would most likely backfire into PTP's face to a degree where they will reject their findings and expell them. Thaksin will use the usual arrogant phrase "the ICC is not my father" as he did about the U.N. when they were critical of his so called war on drugs. He'll claim the invisible hand intervened and political motivation.

Discussion 3 : 03/11/2012 at 07:29 PM

#42. Because it happened nearly 10 years ago, the deaths of many about 3,500 people does not matter? Since this does involve Thaksin ever so much (how many times did he appear encouraging the UDD and stating he would be in the front with them) the drug deaths, at least cannot be ignored. Spread out over a long period of time? "On 14 January 2003, Thaksin launched a campaign to rid "every square inch of the country" of drugs in three months." How long did the UDD illegally occupy Bangkok streets in 2010? Not much a difference in time. The War on Drugs cannot be cannot be linked to the central government? Again, who gave order in 2003? Blacklis

Discussion 4 : 03/11/2012 at 06:46 PM

"What happenes in Vegas stays in Vegas." Likewise, what happenes in Thailand stays in Thailand PERIOD.

Discussion 5 : 03/11/2012 at 06:44 PM

Khun Abbub #36, there is no such thing as "impartial, international presence." UN has become much more corrupted than ever before. For example, the last UN Secretary General Kofi Annan and his son were caught in a huge corruption scandal concerning Saddam Hussein's Oil for Food. Kofi retired from the UN a very rich man.

Discussion 6 : 03/11/2012 at 06:43 PM

"bring Thaksin before an international court to answer some uncomfortable questions". I know what will happen, probably the same as when he appeared in "Hard Talk" with Tim Sebastian, Thaksin was asked the uncomfortable question why his AIS company charged phone rates by the minute instead of 6 seconds as is customary. He walked out and away, he can't handle the reality ever.

Discussion 7 : 03/11/2012 at 05:46 PM

#36, probably because the ICC has been habitually abused as a tool of Western foreign policy - and PTP's paymaster-in-chief Thaksin Shinawatra has been representing Western interests since before becoming PM in 2001. The ICC is a good idea on paper...

Discussion 8 : 03/11/2012 at 05:37 PM

The so-called "war on drugs" and the 2010 clashes cannot be compared. Mainly for two reasons. One, the "war on drugs" took place ten years ago, two, the "war on drugs" was spread out over the whole country, involving thousands of people over a long period of time. The 2010 clashes, took place in Bangkok,over a short time-period. During the war on drugs, police took matters into their own hands and can therefore not be directly linked to the central government in the same way as the military during the 2010 clashes.

Discussion 9 : 03/11/2012 at 05:34 PM

Well, if we don't want to cherry pick and want to go back and investigate Tak Bai and the drug war, let's investigate towing Rohingya refugees out to sea. And speaking of refugees, let's investigate the expulsion of Cambodian refugees back on June 12, 1979. Wasn't Prem the Defense Minister then? Then how about investigating the October 6, 1976 massacre? Seni Pramoj was PM then. Is having an Oxford educated PM a prelude to a Bangkok massacre? Let's investigate. How about Oct 14, 1973? This will keep the ICC busy.

Discussion 10 : 03/11/2012 at 05:03 PM

It would never work. As soon as the ICC investigators get here they would meet the same brick-wall of silence as the Thai investigators came up against. If the latter were unable find evidence leading to the identity of the instigators of the armed violence, the so-called Men in Black, do you really think the ICC would succeed in their place?

Discussion 11 : 03/11/2012 at 04:27 PM

D32: I have no idea why they didn't do so . Perhaps they had some other distractions. Whatever the case, their current position is clear. So, are you in agreement that all cases should be opened up, or do you toe the party line?

Discussion 12 : 03/11/2012 at 03:19 PM

Speaking of the ICC, as Mr. T feels that he can not get a fair trial in Thailand (where he has massive influence over almost every sector of society) why not send him to the ICC to answer for the Krue Sae Mosque massacre, the Tak Bai killings and the 2500 people slaughtered in the War On Drugs that were conducted under his authority? He may even get more justice if we could transfer the other half a dozen corruption cases he is facing to the ICC as well. Can't have it both ways!

Discussion 13 : 03/11/2012 at 02:28 PM

I find it interesting how the usual pro democrat/military commenters who accuse the red shirt/UDD of lying are now so against impartial, international presence that could stand a chance of coming up with facts being the scope of color-oriented politics. Instead of bashing the PT (who deserve some bashing, yes) if you really want truth then support this move. If the PT and UDD end up on the wrong side of the conclusions, you will be happy. If not...you will always have the BO comments section to gather around and give each other thumbs up after bashing the ICC.

Discussion 14 : 03/11/2012 at 01:51 PM

Is the Foreign Minister publicly admitting to the UN that the current Govt which he is a part of can no longer govern Thailand justly, therefore, needs foreign help? To bring in UN only means the end of Thailand sovereignty. Was it TS who said "UN is not my father?" May be he has changed his mind.

Discussion 15 : 03/11/2012 at 01:28 PM

Hangover. I never realized that an airport protest would qualify for the ICC. Let's see, they look into genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and the crime of aggression. Why should Kasit Pirom be scared? Are you also saying only people such as Amsterdam can file investigations to the ICC? According to the ICC, individuals or organizations may submit to the Prosecutor information on crimes within the jurisdiction of the Court. It really doesn't matter if it's Amsterdam or Joe-Schmoe filing the complaint to the Prosecutor for investigation.

Discussion 16 : 03/11/2012 at 01:07 PM

The yellow camp does not have a lawyer in the same high caliber as Amsterdam. So what they can do is only to dream on prosecuting Thaksin on the Tak Bai case. Even Kasit Pirom himself is too scared to go to the Hague because his direct involvement in the airport seizure will be exposed.

Discussion 17 : 03/11/2012 at 01:02 PM

pquinlan, discussion 27, "The Dems want to ratify the treaty." Really? Why didn't they ratify the treaty during their reign? They certainly did less, and were nothing better, than the present regime.

Discussion 18 : 03/11/2012 at 12:55 PM

I find it a little odd how a few of the red shirt/Thaksin supporters are in full favor of opening the case only for the 2010 protests, but nary a mention of other political crimes such as Thaksin's War on Drugs which favored extrajudicial killings, including a 7 year old and Tak Bai where Thaksin admitted the military had done no wrong. Why the cherry picking from some UDD/Thaksin supporters? Ratify the treaty and investigate all of it. Transparency and justice for everyone, not just a few, will put Thailand in the right direction.

Discussion 19 : 03/11/2012 at 12:37 PM

I'd love Thaksin to approve the Red Shirts' demand for the ICC's intervention, but surely he won't as he must know that his own crimes will be revealed, and that will be the end of his hopes of returning home whitewashed and innocent. Also, he won't be able to buy the report he wants. I think that the Red Shirts are starting to become a thorn in Thaksin's side. The Red Shirt leaders must be crazy if they think that they will be whitewashed in the report.

Discussion 20 : 03/11/2012 at 12:22 PM

The dems ask to ratify a treaty when they are not in power. Curious! Already, in 2010 some asked for the intervention of the ICC. The ICC is competent for the mass political crimes and i don't understand why some are afraid to have a serious and impartial investigation for the 2010 repression. We will maybe know if had Gvt snipers in hospitals, if the Reds really invaded them, who burned what, who were behind the men in black and who is responsible of what. Great for the Thailand future.

Discussion 21 : 03/11/2012 at 11:49 AM

I would take it one step further and put Thaksin under the ICC sopt light from the beginning of his shady political career to the present .Let it all be known and judged by them and end this sad chapter of the billionaire who thought he could buy Thailand .

Discussion 22 : 03/11/2012 at 11:28 AM

D3: As near as I can tell from the report, the PTP and Dems are not in agreement. The PTP only want to allow the ICC ad-hoc authority over one issue, and do not want to ratify the ICC Treaty, they want to ensure that the ICC can only investigate what they (PTP) want them to investigate. The Dems want to ratify the treaty and allow the ICC to operate with full jurisdiction over any event the ICC deems appropriate. The two positions couldn't be more different.

Discussion 23 : 03/11/2012 at 10:54 AM

The ICC will find out, who burned the city, who incited unrest, who said what on the stage, who blocked the roads and searched the cars, who occupied government buildings , hospitals and TV stations, who are the men in black and who were behind them. They will charge whether the democratic government acted in line with the laws and who did not. Just go ahead, it will be of interest to the people of this country.

Discussion 24 : 03/11/2012 at 10:28 AM

mogy71, discussion 16, "incredible that Thailand hasn't ratified the ICC treaty". Thailand is in the same group as - to name but a few countries known for war crimes - the USA and Israel. The USA actively supports the prosecution of non-Americans for genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, but it expressly excludes prosecution of American citizens. (Russia has signed but not ratified the ICC.)

Discussion 25 : 03/11/2012 at 10:17 AM

Let's proceed in chronological order, which means Tak Bai comes first.

Discussion 26 : 03/11/2012 at 10:13 AM

I suppose it's a good turn for the sake of reconciliation of Thais, especially between the UDD and PAD. In fact, this reminds me of a book "for Red shirted Peasants/the doctrine for the UDD" that just came out to the town at www.amazon.com and barns and noble, etc. the author is David D. Yun ,who seems to be concerned with the reconciliation with the peasants Thai Prai class that exists as clearly as the sun on a day. Besides the book is in fact about the ICC proceedings among The Asian leaders. what I would say to the Thai young today, "There is nothing that you are afraid of, because the world depends on your understanding of yourself...

Discussion 27 : 03/11/2012 at 10:02 AM

I think they are wasting the ICC's time . They arent going to give a one sided report either like the UDD ,PT and Thaksin would like to pave his return .They are going to fiond like everyone knows that the UDD black shirts goaded the military to respond .

Discussion 28 : 03/11/2012 at 09:56 AM

Bring it on and ratify the treaty. To say one incident should be investigated and not others is flat out wrong and is nothing more than "cherry picking." Open it up and investigate everything from the War on Drugs to the UDD protests. All sides will need to accept the results and consequences.

Discussion 29 : 03/11/2012 at 09:48 AM

LOL and LOL... new signs of red shirt idiocy and amnesia.... Let's go for it indeed and let them look into Thaksin's crimes against humanity.... that will be fun....And show ICC the tapes of a Thai vice minister calling his thugs to burn down Central World......

Discussion 30 : 03/11/2012 at 09:30 AM

I hope ICC take it on. Amsterdam has mixed fact with fiction so much he will be laughed out of court. In has latest post he states that 98 civilians were killed. In another he wrote there were 10,000 army snipers on roof tops 555555.

Discussion 31 : 03/11/2012 at 09:24 AM

I guess by nature I am always suspicious but 'Fatou Bensouda of Gambia, chief prosecutor'. Isn't Gambia in Africa and who has openly said that he was investing heavily in Africa ?

Discussion 32 : 03/11/2012 at 09:22 AM

The ICC should investigate and here are my reasons why. Everyone in Thailand is polarized one way or the other and often does not see the other side of the story, me included. Thailand has never let an outside body investigate any of the previous incidents and if the ICC is allowed to investigate without interference and with some cooperation from those involved that may be exactly what Thailand needs at this point. It's not necessarily about guilt or innocence as there is enough of both to go around. It's about allowing the findings, whatever they are, to come forward from someone who is not a stakeholder. If the Reds were to blame fine,

Discussion 33 : 03/11/2012 at 09:16 AM

Incredible that Thailand hasn't ratified the ICC treaty yet but now they think it might be of use they will allow them power 'on an ad-hoc basis'. If I was the ICC I'd have two words to say to them.

Discussion 34 : 03/11/2012 at 09:01 AM

The real question ... will the UDD, PTP and Thaksin accept their punishments if the court finds them culpable for Ratchaprasong? We have an idea of what Thaksin's answer will be ... "I don't accept the courts judgement, it is politically motivated" The UDD may regret going down this road.

Discussion 35 : 03/11/2012 at 08:43 AM

Do not let the ICC waste their trip. Please include the extra judicial killing and Tak Bai case too.

Discussion 36 : 03/11/2012 at 08:42 AM

Unlike the Truth and Reconciliation Committee, the members on the ICC aren't handpicked by Abhisit to do his whitewashing. The ICC is impartial and it will be Abhisit's lawyers up against Robert Amsterdam. My money's on Amsterdam.

Discussion 37 : 03/11/2012 at 08:32 AM

Amsterdam will be very busy trying to keep blinders on the ICC, so they only see what he and Thaksin and PT want them to see. The ICC should look in the genocide at Tak Bai.

Discussion 38 : 03/11/2012 at 08:23 AM

Further to this, seems Robert Amsterdam has to justify the expensive bill he's no doubt sending Thaksin and the UDD, by getting them an audience with the ICC. Actually the ICC has so far only managed to consider 7 cases, being major crimes against humanity in African countries on a large and sustained level, without a single conviction. Read about it on wikipedia, here are two pertinent sentences: 1. most serious crimes of concern to the international community as a whole 2. The ICC is intended as a court of last resort, investigating and prosecuting only where national courts have failed.

Discussion 39 : 03/11/2012 at 08:12 AM

Hard to see why PT would want this - month after month of international exposure in which a lot of things would come out, and with a very uncertain outcome. Think through the implications for PT of success - it means that they are less able to handle demonstrations and violence similar to the red shirt protests. Surely that makes such demonstrations by their opponents more not less likely

Discussion 40 : 03/11/2012 at 08:08 AM

The trouble with the reds is they aren't very intelligent, or they're so far gone believing their half truth they overlook the fact that an international court may well investigate the pre-conditions, specifically their instigation of the clash. Careful what they wish for. Wouldn't we all love to know the truth behind the UDD's intentions in turning down Abhisit's offer. How about bring Thaksin before an international court to answer some uncomfortable questions about his possible involvement. And if 92 deaths by the state is so important then where does 2,500 fit in, Surapong really ought to invite the ICC to investigate both ad hoc.

Discussion 41 : 03/11/2012 at 08:02 AM

I would be surprised if the ICC take this (especially as an ad hoc application) because they would say we already have a functioning government and legal system in Thailand, which we should try to use first, and because they would see the one sided application as politically tainted - something the ICC would wish to avoid. The slow speed of investigations into deaths and lack of results would also be another barrier to any case

Discussion 42 : 03/11/2012 at 07:41 AM

The ICC should be, pretty much, an impartial body. That means the UDD/Red Shirts will not like the outcome of such an investigation. Just look at how they reacted to the Thai Truth and Reconsiliation report. Also, it will be of little use to bring in the ICC, unless all parties are forced to comply with requests for evidence, documentation and interviews. I can see both sides stalling on such requests.

Discussion 43 : 03/11/2012 at 07:26 AM

In their simplicity to drive their point home to appease the Red followers (ONLY) they may forget a point or two. Their was an emergency law in place at the time and indeed, the infamous war on drugs instigated by the Dubai man and not to forget Tai Bak, could (should) be "probed" as well. The Dubai man and his ilk are far from squeaky clean, and to selectively choose is applying double standard as usual. Then again, refusing the outcome when it does not suit is also par for the course with this group. Be careful what you wish for, it may bite you seriously in the backside.

Discussion 44 : 03/11/2012 at 07:18 AM

They are running scared again. It would be a very interesting can of works to open. A bit like Pandora's box I think. What will happen if, a) the ICC refuse to accept it, and b) if they find the Democrats have no case to answer?

Discussion 45 : 03/11/2012 at 06:23 AM

Good idea. While they are at it they can also look into the war on drugs and the some 3,500 extra judicial killings.

Discussion 46 : 03/11/2012 at 03:43 AM

"Democrat list-MP Kasit Piromya also filed a petition with the ICC seeking.." The great airport terrorist is now a protector of drug lords and traffickers? Since the PTP and Dems are in agreement, the government should quickly ratify the treaty with ICC. We can then work towards reconciliation when bad guys are held accountable for past misdeeds, and future governments need to think twice before pulling the trigger on the civilians.

Discussion 47 : 03/11/2012 at 03:20 AM

Well,Surapong,you better hurry then. You've only got one month left.

Discussion 48 : 03/11/2012 at 03:02 AM

Yes! the best way for reconciliation is the truth! let the ICC work Provides for truth and justice - then there can be reconciliation and amnesty! about Thaksins war on drugs - Chavanond Intarakomalyasut should first think properly before making such statements